Rupert Ayton - Dec 26, 2006 4:11 pm (#1 Total: 61)


I'd start with some more basic questons pertaining to how conscious people are of how money moves and works in society. Most of us operate within a financial system we can't see and don't really understand. We may exist comfortably in our given environment, but when put in another, such as being a non-profit director, we may not be well enough equipped to make effacious decisions.

This "unconscious incompetence" is very difficult to overcome when money decisions are involved. Sometimes those seemingly most qualified to make decisions are the worst. It's why financial scam artists target successful male senior executives. The scam artists know that their marks will never admit to not understanding financial strategies, and will never, ever admit to having been duped.

To further demonstrate the point, I recently visited the Titanic exhibit in San Francisco. Yes, the Titanic may also be a fine example of unconscious incompentance itself. But the illustrative point here is one display that drew some oohs and aahs from the visitors was the paper money recovered from the Titanic. Unlike dollar bills today, the bills exchanged on the Titanic were drawn on private banks. The Titanic sank more than a year before the advent of the US Federal Reserve banking system that we all take for granted today. Take a recent dollar bill out and read it carefully. Do we know what "legal tender" means? Do we know the purpose of the Treasurer of the United States? Or who the Treasurers have been?

mastrom - Dec 26, 2006 7:21 pm (#2 Total: 61)

During the holiday season, I was thinking about the positive benefits that "work" and "business" provide in our society.  Each individual brings in an income (hopefully).  With that income, that individual generates demand in goods and services.  Say what you will about the Friedman family, but they understood that money does move from those how want a good to those how create that good. 

The conscience is responsibility of the dollar-holder.  How many of your holiday/Christmas/New Year purchases were socially conscience?  I am trying to improve, but still have room for improvement. 

I don't mean to introduce a new variable, but my business brings more traffic to other nonprofit revenue-generating ventures.  Are ventures like mine also elegible/good candidates for this type of financing.  (mastroianni_mark@hotmail.com) - Live Responsibly in the New Year!

Patrick O'Heffernan - Dec 26, 2006 10:16 pm (#3 Total: 61)


I will ask Mark to come on and respond to your comment. I agree, but how much time can any NPO director give to understanding. Let's see if we can find a tghreshold. Incidently, was the Titanic exhibit worth the ticket price of $22?

Patrick O'Heffernan - Dec 26, 2006 10:32 pm (#4 Total: 61)


On the other hand, many will say that there are already many banks loaning to businesses, so why let them compete with NPO's for NPO loans?

kmniazi - Dec 27, 2006 12:08 am (#5 Total: 61)
Development Professional


First, this initiative was new to me (even after 22 years of operating), so thank you Patrick for increasing my knowledge.

Second, I am a great believer in running NPOs like for profit organizations. By this, I mean that the NPO HAS to carry out social benefit activities, but its sytems / staff / results are held up to same scrutiny as a for profit organization.

for example, a NPO providing grants to small businesses for purchase of consultancy services (BDS is the term in vogue). its staff can be asked to provide details on how much they spent on promotional activities for its services and what was the return on the expenditure (ROI Marketing).

kmniazi - Dec 27, 2006 12:10 am (#6 Total: 61)
Development Professional


the organization would be a hybrid NPO (this was the word, i was trying to describe)

plamb - Dec 27, 2006 10:35 am (#7 Total: 61)
Paul Lamb

Patrick: Great and important discussion. Thanks! My own experience with loans to nonprofits in the U.S. has been very positive. Institutions like the Northern California Community Loan Fund provide superb services to organizations and community-based projects struggling to stay afloat.

In my humble opinion, one of the biggest challenges NPOs face is a lack of experience using traditional financial tools, along with a mentality that "loans are for business". It would be great to see more training of nonprofits to take advantage of these offerings and to better understand existing and emerging financial options.

Speaking of emerging options, as direct microfinancing (i.e., Kiva) and person to person loans (i.e., Prosper) become more popular, it opens the door for a variety of choices not previously available to the social sector.

Finally, not to get too far off topic, but some other financial tools for the social sector worth considering are social credit cards and social currency. See: Social Credit Card and Ithaca Hours.

Rupert Ayton - Dec 27, 2006 2:01 pm (#8 Total: 61)


I learned two things at the Titanic exhibit that may just have made it worth the price of admission: how big the lumps of coal that fired the boilers were, and that a coal strike had caused a coal shortage for steamers; Titanic was given the priority on available coal and other steamers were idled; the end result being a lot of unfortunate passengers had their berths transferred to the Titanic. It makes me wonder a little about the transfer of ill-fortune from one person to another, coal miner to passenger.

Which leads me back to RSF, which is the perverbial diamond made from coal when it comes to money. As I write this Siegfried Finser's book has just arrived in the mail. It's titled Money Can Heal. Money is a medium, not an object. What good fortune or ill-fortune does it transfer? Who makes that decision?

Patrick O'Heffernan - Dec 27, 2006 2:09 pm (#9 Total: 61)


That is what social edge is for. Incidently. I recorded teh interview with Mark Finser and will try to post it (may need some editing). Will let everyone know when...soon I hope.

Patrick O'Heffernan - Dec 27, 2006 2:13 pm (#10 Total: 61)


I will check out the Titanic exhibit when I am in SF Friday. As to your questions: It can and often does transfer both ill and good fortune. The decision is made by the transferer. In practical terms, however, the good or ill of money depends on the environment within whcih it flows. It you have been following my conversations with a Amazonian Shaman, you will see that introducing money into the village - regardless of motive - brought ill. When you add corporate transfer of moenyv- corporations having no morals by definition - the scale of ill can become tremendous. (I am not anti-corporate; I am anti giving corporations the same status as humans without investing them with morals and a conscience.)

Patrick O'Heffernan - Dec 27, 2006 2:19 pm (#11 Total: 61)


You are right on the moeny when it comes to using finance - most NPOs are clueless because it has not been an option and financial risk-taking is not in their (our) DNA. I love the idea of training; perhaps we could get at least a powerpoint or podcast lecture up on the site. Hopefully Victor or Mark Finser will weigh in. As to the creidt cards, another great idea. Non profit banks could compete on social iterest rates..hmmm.

Pamela McLean - Dec 27, 2006 4:12 pm (#12 Total: 61)


I am encouraged to find in this thread that people (besides me) who are involved in social ventures might need training about the possibility of borrowing.

When I first found social edge I thought that perhaps I could claim the label of "Social Entrepreneur" to describe my role in pushing forwards with an innovative project in rural Nigeria. Previously the only labels I'd been given were "philanthropist" and "stupid". "Philanthropist"was totally inappropriate as I didn't have any spare money to speak of to put into the project (instead I had information-type things like vision, knowledge and skills). "Stupid" was probably a more accurate label as my obsession with the project was competing against my day job and winning,

Although "the project" has made real progress in various directions and attracted some positive outside interest my feeling that I probably couldn't claim to be a "social entrepreneur" has kept increasing - and now I describe my self as a "Life-Long-Learner" or "self-directed student".

I think of "the project" as a piece of practical research into the potential of ICT enabled opportunities for education/training in rural Nigeria and similar environments, I recognise that I am not working alone any more - "the project" is now surrounded by a vibrant e-network of mentors, collaborators, supporters and "skill givers" of various kinds - there are even beneficiaries of "the project".

However regarding "social entrepreneurship" I see myself as a non-starter because I have never really managed to get any kind of meaningful relationship between the project and money - and it seems to me,from reading Social Edge, that the right relationship between projects and money is key to being a "real social entrepreneur".

Who knows, things might change. According to this thread it seems I might not be the only person involved in social ventures who needs some training when it comes to thinking about "how money works". Maybe there is hope that sometime I shall graduate from being a "self- directed student" into being a "social entrepreneur"

Pam

tools4humanity - Dec 27, 2006 4:37 pm (#13 Total: 61)
Mohamed Maie Tools For Humanity

Back to basic traditional and meaningful methods which I found very interesting social justice movement. As several post conflict countries and extrem poverty communities trying to make with the help and support of NGOs or NPOs, I can vision how west world is changing and how it's very important partnership between north and south social enterpreneurser to make some contribution toward the social purpose and put their agenda new honest models for empowerment.

I admire social edge's forward direction, I start small project with Somalia and I can see how many life and poor families benefit very little money we riase and re-distribute. I encourage RSF social finance blue print or easy way to model.

How can we get more information ??

Thanks

Mohamed Maie

KevinDoyleJones - Dec 27, 2006 6:10 pm (#14 Total: 61)
principal at Good Capital, goodcap.net


debt traditionally implies assets. social enterprises that need expansion capital don't have the assets, or the factorable receivables, to warrent debt service. we are raising an equity fund from investors who expect a return on their capital to place into a dozen or so social enterprises, non profit or for profit. goodcap.net. be glad to explain more, engage in a discussion, etc.

isbume - Dec 28, 2006 5:15 am (#15 Total: 61)

I am glad to join this conversation.  For organisations like ours in Nigeria (Institute of Small Business Management and Entrepreneurship (Centre for Integrated Rural Development Initiatives), finding financial support to back up sustainable entrepreneurial ideas that can achieve sustainable reduction in poverty is a heavy task.  The idea of establishing entrepreneurial bank is a worthy one. However, we should not forget that intended beneficiaries should be exposed to the skills of funds management as well as assisting them to build up their integrity in service. 

Many lack the funds management ability and the skills for planning their development projects.  This means the bank should assemble a team of multi-disciplinary individuals in entrepreneurship as a way of helping the beneficiaries to take good advantage of the facility.

Our NGO has been faced with acute shortage of fund to get our small business incubation facility off ground.  The presence of a social entrepreneurship bank will definitely make a difference if the rate is safe and fair to beneficiaries in developing countries.

I will be very much glad to read from individuals and groups that can assist us. We will be prepared to make a fair return.  We believe that social entrepreneurship should not be a jamboree.  Social enterprise activities should be able to make a fair return on the investment of supporters.  This is the only way for recircling the available fund.

Regards to all.

Segun Benson

Patrick O'Heffernan - Dec 28, 2006 9:11 am (#16 Total: 61)


I unerstand what you mean about the relationship of the project to money . As a fund raiser for 25 years I have generated over $60 million and for at least $20 of of that, the relationship of money to the project was not rally clear (but th relationship of the donor to the project was !) . I agree with you that an important aspect of social entrepreneur is the realtionship of money to project and vice-versa. That leads to sustainability. Hopefully this site can help with that.

I will seriously explore some kind of instuction in non profit loans. Mark Finser is outof town until after the New Years, but when he returns, I will ask about finance instruction for NPOs.

Patrick O'Heffernan - Dec 28, 2006 9:14 am (#17 Total: 61)


Thee are many "non-profit banks" that actually call themselves "micro-lending agencies". Are these useful/available to you. I am on the obared of one that makes loans to women in Guatamala, Equador and souther Mexico. Is there a similar bank that makes loans in Nigeria? If not, I think there is a business opportunityhere for someone with capital and a heart

mfidelman - Dec 28, 2006 9:17 am (#18 Total: 61)
Center for Civic Networking


There are a lot of non-profit cooperatives that seem to have no problem taking on debt, as well as well-funded sources of debt that serve cooperatives (both for-profit and non-profit). The Cooperative Bank comes to mind.

Patrick O'Heffernan - Dec 28, 2006 9:32 am (#19 Total: 61)


Mohamed Welcome and we are very glad to have you. Pleae continue posting as your viewpoint is very valuable. Feel free to put up a longer post about your work. As to information: RSF bank is at www.rsfsocialfinance.org. I noteice there is a new non profit bank in the UK...see my next post.

Patrick O'Heffernan - Dec 28, 2006 9:33 am (#20 Total: 61)


Brum trial sparks non-profit bank http://icbirmingham.icnetwork.co.uk

Nov 29 2002

A new bank - trialed in Birmingham - was launched today which aims to help people get back to work by offering them loans to set up their own businesses.

Street, which will be run on a not-for-profit basis, will lend money to unemployed people who want to become sole traders or small-scale entrepreneurs but find it difficult to get credit from the major lenders.

It will also give loans and financial advice to people who already operate as sole traders or run businesses employing no more than five people.

The group today opened a branch in Bromley-by-Bow, east London, following a year-long pilot in Birmingham and Newcastle, during which it leant money to about 110 people, ranging from window cleaners and dress designers, to newsagents and market traders.

It hopes to expand to have about 40 branches across the whole UK during the next five years.

Patrick O'Heffernan - Dec 28, 2006 9:42 am (#21 Total: 61)


Which Cooperataive Bank? The one in the UK (www.co-operativebank.co.uk) is employee owned and does work with NPO's. The one MA (www.thecooperativebank.com) is a commercial bank. The National Cooperative Bank (http://www.ncb.coop/index.aspx) makes loans to coops in the US.

mfidelman - Dec 28, 2006 9:47 am (#22 Total: 61)
Center for Civic Networking


I was thinking the National Cooperative Bank. I know there are other debt sources as well, for the coop sector.

The non-profit coop sector seems to provide a good example of a sector where reasonably large amounts of loan funding are available, and used, by non-profits. There are probably lessons to be learned here.

DR.PRABIR DUTTA - Dec 28, 2006 10:17 am (#23 Total: 61)
CALCUTTA MANAGEMENT ASSOCIATION


To be candid no organisation is without profit.Because we express profit in terms of money.But if we express profit in terms of return of investment--it could have  gained beyond profit in money terms;but in context of community and society.Thus once Human resource is being turned into Human capital;they know how to bring finance and physical resources and that show sustainability of organisation by overall profit.

Patrick O'Heffernan - Dec 29, 2006 9:59 am (#24 Total: 61)


Do you know of other banks that loan more widely?

Patrick O'Heffernan - Dec 29, 2006 10:01 am (#25 Total: 61)


I agree that we all make profit in some form...when I worked for Gov. Jerry Brown he used to talk about "psychic dollars" as our profit (i.e., compensation for low pay). But I am not sure what you mean by a difference betseen human resoures and human capital....doesn't "capital" de-humanize humans?

mfidelman - Dec 29, 2006 10:24 am (#26 Total: 61)
Center for Civic Networking


My point about the Coop Bank is in response to the opening statement that "some NPOs are very reluctant to take on debt and many foundations will not allow grants to be used to repay loans"

Non-profit coops are a sector that seem to have learned to use debt in much the same way as traditional commercial businesses. I think that there are lessons to be learned by non-profits there - about when and how to use debt - lessons that probably need to be learned before we're going to see more general debt avaialability to the non-profit sector.

All of which is a very different set of issues than those addressed by micro-lenders.

DR.PRABIR DUTTA - Dec 31, 2006 9:52 am (#27 Total: 61)
CALCUTTA MANAGEMENT ASSOCIATION


 Existing management system oflate showing liabilities for societal development. But while accounting this liability is not yet considered by the Accountant. Traditional Accounting system prevailing thus fails to boost modernization. Sometimes exellance is being suppressed by organized mediocrities. This sort of hindrance is possible to be removed by changing and incorporating the welfare accounting system. From manufacture to marketing process the lots of pollutants are being produced. Traditional accounting system remains silent on this issue. The prevailing system refrains to bring natural resources viz. land, air and water etc. used in manufacture process. The cost of these resources were not being taken in preparation of balance sheet by the Accountant which is now mandatory in company acts. It is liability of the management to pay for pollution removal technology and it is felt to be essential what amount of money is being spent for the welfare of the society. Principle 16th of the Rio-conference declaration on environment and development states that national authorities should endeavour to promote the internalization of costs and use of economic instruments, taking into account the approach that polluter should,in principle, bear the cost of pollution and measures to protect human health and the environment from the harmful impacts of persistent pollutants. In natural resource accounting the quantity of resource is to be multiplied by the market price for getting money value. There are some resources which have no market utility at present but exist possibility in future.Now health is one of the criterion of HDI(Human Development Index) accordingly nutritious diet of animal origin is vital per se healthy animal may be considered as HI(Health Index) of a nation. Can any country be called developed without healthy productive livestocks? So there is necessity of shadow accounting for animal resources for future generation which is being ignored both by economist and accountant. Modernization means certain shifting from traditional system for convenience of good production and marketing keeping conformity the pace of development.Say for example, entry of high-tech application in medicine has brought convenient more accurate methods for diagnosis and efficient treatment facilities.While accounting on money spent by the client appears to be more; becomes cost effective and same as in traditional system when period to cure is less with minimum expenditure and more satisfaction avoiding complication of old system. This is true and same while application of high-tech for animal health, production and welfare of animals and public health. Similarly computer application in account system itself is cost effective where staff wages fall with higher efficiency. The important role played by accounting can be appreciated by considering the example of national income accounts. Estimation of GDP are so ubiquitous that one forgets that such estimates are little more than in old system.Suppose a man marries his maid and the couple do not employ another maid, national income decreases as unpaid household work is not valued in national income.It appears fall of income in traiditional system but welfare accounting estimates to judge the modern performances; though expenditure is more at first instance but if degradation guarded ultimately gains in profitability over all.For example, the productivity improves when a land is left fallow.The load of carbon dioxide in the air or organic wastes in water get absorbed and the air and water quality improves which were lost by over use.So accounting is not perfect if our perception about the kind of development and in turn the policy is not taken. When a person saves he plans to be better off in the future; if he lives beyond his capacity his plans to be worse off ultimately. This is the actual meaning of welfare accounting – a logical extension of ideas while organizational accounting. Doing business in a better way means- doing faster, less cost, with less waste, higher quality and in a simpler way.All good business all over the world will have to be done with commercially functional and socially beneficial.This business skill that can be learnt which empowers people by adding strength to their natural abilities for improving teamwork, productivity where exists appropriate profits. Integrated social and economic assessment(ISEA) impact and environment in welfare accounting can not be avoided. To replenish the traditional accounting by welfare accounting, political will and understanding of social benefits should be reckoned with future perspective. Government may provide some incentive like tax benefit if any organization plays a role for welfare along with profit.

isbume - Jan 2, 2007 5:01 am (#28 Total: 61)

Hi Patrick,

Compliments of the Season.  I am always impressed with the commitment of the gentlemen at the Socialedge to the idea of entrepreneurship as a basis for championing sustainable development in our world.  I love your dedication and zeal to be of help to people of this generation.  I received your post with great relief and trust you will be of assistance to us.

In Nigeria we do not have a micro loan facility of the sort you mentioned.  Even the conventional microfinance institutions are not really living up to expectation.  I believe a micro loan industry of the sort mentioned by you will be able to help us to jump start our idea of small business incubation facility in Nigeria.

In this new year, and particularly in the first quarter, we will be glad to take-off as we already have 6-acre of land for the project. I have written extensively on this idea, even at the international level.  I presented a paper to the 4th Global Conference on Business and Economics which took place at Oxford University, Oxford, in the year 2005.  The paper contained the idea of Small Business Incubation Facility as a strategy for alleviating economic poverty in developing society like Nigeria. 

We are anxious to conduct a pilot stage of the project after which we hope to replicate it in other Local Giovernment Areas in the State.  Finding a financial support will go a long way to drive our entrepreneurial spirit along.  Many will be sustainably brought out of the poverty level as we have mapped out high-growth agro-industrial enterprises having abundance of local raw materials.  We are out to strengthen the agro-industrial base of the rural people and thus help them to maximise their economic potentials.  In addition, we are geographically focus, and this is in the area of people living in fadama areas with high enterprise potentials but who do not know how to tap into their resources.

We will definitely appreciate your assistance of connecting us to the organisation with the capital and a heart to assist developing countries like Nigeria.

Remember, we love the work you are doing across the world.

Remain blessed.

Segun Benson

isbume - Jan 2, 2007 5:14 am (#29 Total: 61)

Hi Kevin,

I find your posting very interesting.  Our organisation will probably benefit from your organisation's support.  We have a project idea needing support and which we believe will make a difference in the position of many poor in the rural areas of our country.  It is the idea of establishing a small business incubation facility.  We hope to incubate a lot of small business operators in various agro-industries enterprises for a given period after which they will be able to stand on their own in a competitive business environment.

We will be glad to hear from you on how you can be of assistance.  Please contact me on isbume@yahoo.com at your earliest.  Let us network for the good of our fellow men in the land of the living.

Remain blessed.

Segun Benson

Patrick O'Heffernan - Jan 2, 2007 12:30 pm (#30 Total: 61)


check out Africa Pride micro loans <http://www.opt-init.org/framework/pages/appendix2Case1.html> this may be a good source for you

KevinDoyleJones - Jan 2, 2007 12:50 pm (#31 Total: 61)
principal at Good Capital, goodcap.net


thanks for the inquiry segun. i've responded via email. also our folks at synapse fund could be an option. i don't know enough about what you are doing to tell exactly. is there a profile of your organization on social edge and i didn't see it? (i confess i'm not as familiar with the social edge interface as i'd like to become. here is the map of synapse and their relationships in our xigi database. http://www.xigi.net/index.php?map=entity&map_en=551

ChrisCook - Jan 2, 2007 4:08 pm (#32 Total: 61)

Hi Patrick

The conventional wisdom is that the only options available to Social Enterprises are grants/gifts or loans of one type or another.

I've been working for some time now on simple new production/revenue-sharing options - Capital Partnerships - using the unintended consequences of the UK LLP (close cousin to the US LLC - no relation whatever to a US LP or LLP).

In this model investors simply receive a proportional share of the production - or the revenues from the sale of production - of a productive asset which they finance as "Capital Member" and the Social Enterprise operates as "Operating Member". It's not borrrowing, and its's not Equity as we know it, either.

I also advocate mutualised credit through "Guarantee Societies" where bilateral "trade" credit is subject to a multilateral guarantee, backed by a provision into a Default Fund.

There is a lot of material at my site

www.opencapital.net

Also recently started a workspace

http://www.omidyar.net/group/opencapital/

aimed at teasing out the issues and leading to practical applications.

I am working on a number of prototypes in Scotland and Norway in the context of the "Hanseatic Microfinance Initiative", and we have initial funding from the Norwegian government plus considerable interest from local government.

To date, I have found it virtually impossible to get these concepts across in the US because thinking seems to be so totally embedded in current stereotypes.

Still, I live in hope.

Best Regards

Chris Cook

 

 

KevinDoyleJones - Jan 2, 2007 10:36 pm (#33 Total: 61)
principal at Good Capital, goodcap.net


Chris cook said" "I am working on a number of prototypes in Scotland and Norway in the context of the "Hanseatic Microfinance Initiative", and we have initial funding from the Norwegian government plus considerable interest from local government.

To date, I have found it virtually impossible to get these concepts across in the US because thinking seems to be so totally embedded in current stereotypes."

We are not finding that to be the case, though the movement is not as fast as we would like, we think there is a revealed appetite for something more.

ChrisCook - Jan 3, 2007 2:17 am (#34 Total: 61)

Good to hear it Kevin.

Having had a browse around your site, I am interested in what you are doing but it is not at all clear to me - maybe I missed something on the site- how your solution differs from conventional Equity and Debt.

I am tapping in to some seriously interesting new financial tools - I used to be a Director of the International Petroleum Exchange, so I have some knowledge of financial products of all types.

The market in Equity Release (merely one application of the model) - where I have developed what I believe may be an optimal new product - is illustrated by the fact that in the UK alone there is over £1trillion in property owned free of mortgage by over-65's.

If you are interested, please email me on cojock@hotmail.com

Best Regards

Chris Cook

44 7770 843087

Jeff.Mowatt - Jan 3, 2007 2:59 am (#35 Total: 61)
P-CED


Hi Kevin,

By the sound of it, you and I are singing from the same hymnsheet as you may see at www.p-ced.com

Chris and I have been talking a lot and he's certainly opened my eyes to possibilities which are staggering in their implications.

Hope you join in on our discussions.

Regards,

Jeff

isbume - Jan 3, 2007 7:36 am (#36 Total: 61)

Hello Patrick, I am impressed with your speedy response to our request.  The idea you suggested will be taken up.  I do hope to find solution.  We see you gentlemen as champions of positive transformation in developing countries.  As we are seeing, we hope to find a tremendous improvement in sustainable enterprise development among voiceless and vulnerable people in developing societies if you keep up the pace at which you are going in finding solution to the need of the poor.

Our organisation is interested in contributing to an explosion of small scale businesses in developing countries of the world starting from Nigeria.  With the help of people like you with heart and mind for this innovative approach to entrepreneurship we can find strength and encouragement.

I love you.

Remain blessed.

Segun Benson

isbume - Jan 3, 2007 7:42 am (#37 Total: 61)

 

Hello Kevin,

Thank you for your email and your posting on the discussions.  I will check the site for the detail information on how your organisation can be of assistance.  This kind of network is what is needed. A practical approach devoid of theoretical ambiquity that does not address the need of the poor.

I surely will get back to you in a couple of days.  I will also discuss your programe with the rest members of our organisation.  We are active and alive to be a blessing to many in our generation.

The Lord bless the work of your hands.

Segun Benson

Patrick O'Heffernan - Jan 3, 2007 8:57 am (#38 Total: 61)


I think we have enough material here for a summary/bullet-point list of options for NP financing. I am especially interested in capitol partnerships. Independent films sometimes are financed this way - its called "participation". It makes a lot of sense. I will be in London in late Feb and if possible would like to chat. I think this is the right time to introduce the American NPO community and donor community to the wide range of forms of financing out there now.

Patrick O'Heffernan - Jan 3, 2007 9:01 am (#39 Total: 61)


I think that all of us here are very interested in how well you fare in exploring these new financing tools in an African context.

KevinDoyleJones - Jan 3, 2007 10:30 am (#40 Total: 61)
principal at Good Capital, goodcap.net


we are taking in equity from investors who want a financial return (though the investment is philanthropically motivated; lots to say on that). then we are investing in non profits and for profits. in for profit social enterprises as traditional equity, essentially. in non profits, the investment could be in the form of deeply subordinated debt (no debt service, but the interest capitalizes until some agreed upon revenue milestones, or other targets or met) or it could be revenue rights, depending on the nature of the enterprise and the opportunity. for the investee, it functions like equity; aligning investor interests with the success and growth of the enterprise. obviously, we are limiting our field by looking for enterprises with real and substantial growth opportunities.

ChrisCook - Jan 3, 2007 4:03 pm (#41 Total: 61)

Patrick

 

I've prototyped a Capital Partnership on a film "The Art of Flirting". `For £20 we created Art of Flirting LLP as a "wrapper" for it and we evolved a very simple and consensual LLP agreement setting out the relationships.

The Actors didn't get paid: they got "Equity Shares"/ Participation in the Gross: the producer didn't get paid either, and neither did I - I got a 5% proportional "Equity Share" in the Gross revenues -IF THERE ARE ANY.

Now, we needed £10k for lights, cameras, sandwiches etc and two "Capital Partners" came in on the basis that in return for the use of their Capital they got x% of the revenues - if there are any.

Now that's not Debt (cos there's no obligation to repay the capital) and it's not Shares as we know them, Jim.

But it IS tremendously tax effective because UK LLP's are "tax transparent" (ie " pass through" like the US LLC they resemble and improve upon) and the Capital Partners have genuinely made losses they can offset at their highest rate.

Simple, but hugely effective.

I believe that Capital Partnerships make possible investments that are not viable any other way. But they can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear!

 

Patrick O'Heffernan - Jan 3, 2007 4:45 pm (#42 Total: 61)


As part of a film investment group, I hear pitches every month from indie fim makers, some of whom capitalize their films in a similar fashion. Or, they have the film paid for and tehy seek capitalization participation for marketing and distributor fees. Either way, it is the same as you described. I believe NPOs can do the same thing even if they are C3's

ChrisCook - Jan 3, 2007 11:37 pm (#43 Total: 61)

When you say "Capitalization" how are the indies constituting their films? Does anyone wrap them in LLC's?

The way I see it, a good structure would be an "umbrella" generic Indie Film LLC with the following members:

(a) an Indie Institution/Foundation, which "owns" the IP purely as "Trustee" or Custodian;

(b) "Guilds" or unincorporated associations of Indie film Makers etc ;

(c) a "Guild" of angel Investors:

(d) a management partner/ platform provider;

(e) a "Club" of Indie watchers.

Each film would be the subject of a "sub-agreement" I call an "Enterprise agreement".  The master LLC agreement would incorporate a Creative Commons licence.

The Indie's, Investors and Managers would share revenues (if any) from customers in pre -agreed proportions set out in Enterprise Agreements, and the relevant "Equity Shares" in individual films would be tradeable on the Guild site.

The same approach works as a wrapper for any other IP, and in particular gives rise to a "CommonSource" software wrapper which is BOTH "Closed"/Proprietary (because only LLC members can use it) AND "Open" (because anyone may consent to and sign up to the LLC agreement).

We are also exploring the use of this approach to bring together commercial investors and academic institutions in a non-toxic way to develop research.

Best Regards

Chris Cook

 

Patrick O'Heffernan - Jan 4, 2007 2:50 pm (#44 Total: 61)


Many indie producers create LLC's and sell units, or shares. Ssome offer to repay investors +10% out of the first proceeds and then a share of net after the distribution fees, production costs, actors participation, marketing costs, etc.

Others borrow money against proceeds, with a co-signer who is often also an investor.

I like the Guild idea and will bring it up at our next Film Angels meeting. It would not work quite the same,for legal reasons, but it is a good model.

Inciodently, we are seeing "packages" coming from talent agencies looking for investoers. the package includes the script, director, talent and distribution contract. The agency is looking for production money; they don't need marketing or distgribution fees beause that is sltgheir part of the package. Of courfse theys get fees from the actors and directors too.

Patrick O'Heffernan - Jan 4, 2007 2:54 pm (#45 Total: 61)


Kevin How would good capital feel about investing in sustainable agriculture projects in a developing country? Small cap investments ($1000 - $5000) with 3-year return horizon and ongoing revenue after that.

ClaraJ - Jan 6, 2007 3:35 pm (#46 Total: 61)
Founder: Be Good, Give Goooood (tm?), Promote Good

Kevin Doyle Jones,

Buon Giorno!  How do you say how are you in your language?  Sono Chiara di Assisi o di Corea o di tutto el mundo. Parlese italiano?  Su cara est molto intelligente.  (You look like a massive leader).  Will you tell me more about your personal spiritual autobiography and why you chose this particular site to blog?  I also have an interest in setting up a bank... pero no puedo explicar ahora.  Tal vez, si dios quiere en el futuro antes de mi vida est completa.

Hope you understand my global language.  If not, Google has some great language translators.

p.s  I do not want to mislead you.  I was born in Korea and live - well, my house is in Silicon Valley - but my home is tutto el mundo wherever mi corazon e mi amore e mi famiglia estan y estaban.  Heaven and earth.

Sae Hae Bok Manni Badduseyo.  Buon Anno.  Happy New Year. 

Piace.  Peace. Pyungwha.

A bientot.  aka "Chiara di Assisi"

isbume - Jan 8, 2007 8:18 am (#47 Total: 61)

Hello Patrick,

Thank you for your effort on this site. Let me make my request for explicit. We are in search of the door-key for unlocking the economic potential of the poor in rural communities of Ogun State, Nigeria.

This key is to open the door that will lead to an explosion of cottage/small scale agro-industrial ent

rprises that will bail out the rural poor from their state of economic slavery.

Our Institute needs individuals and groups with the capital and a compassionate heart to lift the poor from the dunghill into the palaces of their economic destiny.  We are prepared to make a good return for the supply of this key.

For sure, we are prepared to start off with high growth enterprises that will loose the rural poor from the chain of abject povertyu.  As honest and skilled stewards we are prepared to provide interested enterprise angels with returns for their equity capital contributions.

The economic needs of the rural poor in our community is an opportunity for enterprise angels to make additional income and to put smile on the faces of family heads, housewives and children in our community.  It will also trnaslate into relieving our own long term burden to usher many rural dwellers into their era of economic independence.

For this pilot project, isbume has multi-=disciplinary team of professionals dedicated to trural enterprise development to justify the congtribution of individuals and groups to isbume's pfroject tagged: Operation Sustainable Ebnterprises Expolision in the rural areas of Ogun State, Nigeria.

Interested individuals and groups can please contact me on isbume@yahoo.com for further information and clarification.

Remain bvlessed.

Segun Benson,ACIS, M.Sc.(Aston) President and Head of Missions

Bruce Cahan - Jan 8, 2007 9:23 pm (#48 Total: 61)
Sustainability Banker, Lawyer & Pioneer

As Rupert Ayton and Kevin Jones know, I am working to create a bank whose loan, credit card, insurance and other operations generate sustainable, resilient communities using an objective benchmark called sustainable resiliency™ (SR).

My experience as a small NPO in NYC was that, while commercial banks would pitch us for business, they did not understand the cyclical nature of our government grants.

My vision is that NPOs whose activities generate regional sustainable resiliencywould qualify as better borrowers because their activities are implicitly part of the improved credit rating for SR-leveled institutional debt (something I call socially-responsive debt, SRD).

I am looking for foundations, like Skoll, and others who are interested in exploring and supporting the domestic and global implications of SR and SRD finance.

Best regards,

Bruce

 

Contact Info:

Bruce Cahan, President

Urban Logic, Inc. (A New York nonprofit, qualified in California)

email: bcahan (at) urbanlogic.org

 

isbume - Jan 9, 2007 4:59 am (#49 Total: 61)

Good day Patrick,

Thanks for your posting to Kevin Doyle Jones about agricultural project in developing societies like Nigeria. I am interested in Kevin's response to your posting.

I indicated an interest to have the support of individuals and organisations like Good Capital. We look forward to hearing from you and Kevin. We appreciate your beautiful contributions on this forum.

Remain blessed.

Segun

Patrick O'Heffernan - Jan 9, 2007 8:35 am (#50 Total: 61)


Bruce That will likely alwauys be the case for most banks as NPOs are not a large enough part of the market to stimulate training and hiring of bank officers who do understand NPO financing. That is why an alternative is being developed. But, I predict athat at some point the commercial banking world will take notice and incorporate NPO financing into their routines. there are already glimmers of that happening. One thing about capitalistic entitites - they jump on opportunities.

KevinDoyleJones - Jan 9, 2007 6:53 pm (#51 Total: 61)
principal at Good Capital, goodcap.net


it's on our radar. our first fund is domestic, or principally a domestic footprint (i.e. a remittance business that had a positive impact in the u.s and in mexic might make it in, e.g). but we are working on something we are calling the digital village fund

Jeff.Mowatt - Jan 10, 2007 12:49 am (#52 Total: 61)
P-CED


Kevin, This is very much the heart of what we've been working on over the past 3 years, Developing a model for digital villages that not only empowers but provides a revenue generator for onward social investment.

Having proven in Russia that full cost recovery from business driven investment can be returned over 5 years, this now moves into the area of the more than full cost recovery component, supporting a partial cost recovery component for a specific social object.

Essentially, we're talking about an economy of scale for national level schemes in the order of $100m investment being deployed over 4 years.

Until I began talking to Chris recently, others would have me believe that other than large scale international development funding there was no way that private capital could be attracted to such projects.

I'm glad to report that I now have a different view and it doesn't stop there. Housing, energy, agriculture and many other social needs in the developing world all have the potential for shared asset investment which is in essence, partnering with the poor.

Chris has already demonstrated this potential, with a wind energy project in Pakistan. There will be many more, I'm sure.

Jeff

nkafka - Jan 10, 2007 2:25 am (#53 Total: 61)
Nik Kafka

RSF highlights a finance gap that has often existed even for well established NPOs & social enterprises in developed countries, but one that is at least begining to be filled.

Similarly the huge rise in microfinance has brought significant social benefits by plugging the gap at the level of individual entrepreneurs in developing countries.

The social enterprise spectrum is however so broad that there are a wide variety of organisations of intermediate scale who are still underserved, particularly in developing countries. 

At Teach A Man To Fish for example we're working with educational institutions in developing countries to build up school-based enterprises capable of generating income to support teaching activities.

Too large for microfinance, too unusual for commercial banks, these small scale social enterprises represent a legitimate social investment opportunity capable of generating risk-based returns - yet finding finance to support their growth is a real challenge.

We're currently looking at setting up a fund to meet this need (albeit at the very earliest stages).

If anyone has any interesting ideas or experiences to share, please get in touch!

Cheers

Nik

For more info see http://www.teachamantofish.org.uk/

Patrick O'Heffernan - Jan 10, 2007 10:54 am (#54 Total: 61)


Nik I checked out your site and am very impressed. This a natural collaboration and well presented. DI seeyou are building an international networl. I am goinf to rocommend to

Patrick O'Heffernan - Jan 10, 2007 10:54 am (#55 Total: 61)

isbume - Jan 11, 2007 6:12 am (#56 Total: 61)

 Dear Nik,

I am impressed with your great idea on developing entrepreneurship at school level.  This looks like what we are trying to do at the Institute of Small Business Management and Entrepreneurship through our small business incubation facilities.  We are very much interested in devel;oping agro-industrial enterprises. Please let us get in touch.  I am on isbume@yahoo.com I will like to network with you further.

Remain blessed.

Segun Benson

Patrick O'Heffernan - Jan 16, 2007 10:16 am (#57 Total: 61)


I have received some comments offline that continuing this discussion but with a slightly different direction would be useful.  The direction that has been suggested is what are the drawbacks to borrowing money for NPOs, and some real experiences from NPOs that borrowed money.  Another suggestion was, given that some states are putting the brakes on NPO conversions to For-profits (Kansas, Maryland, N North Carolina and Washington State among others), and debt can have a role in these decisions, do NPO entrepreneurs need to start thinking more precisely about debt and future strategy.

KevinDoyleJones - Jan 16, 2007 10:37 am (#58 Total: 61)
principal at Good Capital, goodcap.net


is what a social entrepreneur needs if she is looking for expansion capital. that is, where debt service is delayed until growth milestones are reached and the ability to pay a return to the investor is possible. from the standpoint of the entrepeneur, the money invested acts like equity; the investor and investee's interests are aligned for growth. im an advisor to a calvert social investment foundaiton $10 social enterprise debt fund, and we have not found that entrepreneurs who need growth capital typically have assets or receivables that can service traditional or even newer types of soft debt.

isbume - Jan 18, 2007 4:26 am (#59 Total: 61)

noahroger - Jan 20, 2007 10:00 am (#60 Total: 61)

Dear Sirs,

Hi! I'm Noah Roger from Cameroon, CENTRAL AFRICA, and we are starting a social enterprise dedicated to providing efficient and affordable technologies in water, energy and agriculture to the people to emancipate them from poverty. At this time, we have 3 products to market:

1. Portable water purification devices that can worn around the neck and turn any surface water-wells,river,sea...- into safe drinking water. And it costs only $5.

2. Efficient solar oven lasting as long as 20 years and heating quickly. People get a cheaper  and healthier cooking device and protect our forests. The larger ones can be used to start a micro bakery therefore providing income to a community or a group.

3. Manual irrigation pumps to help increase the income of small farmers.

At this time, we are looking for financing for this project that will return a lot of social benefits and a good financial return to investors.

read more about us on www.investorworldonline.com and click on sanaga emancipation corp. under "companies to watch". A business plan is available on request.

Looking forward to hearing from you very soon.

 

NOAH R. JUSTIN, CEO

SANAGA EMANCIPATION CORP.

PO BOX 12 107 YAOUNDE CAMEROON

TEL-237 983 84 68

Email: sanagafinancial@yahoo.com

 

Matt Jones - Jan 23, 2007 1:36 am (#61 Total: 61)
Director, Social Alchemy Pty Ltd, Australia